The Everlasting Hall of Fame Debate (Updated BoS Material)

Through the years, I have made numerous posts on who belongs in Cooperstown & why... With the upcoming inductions of Tim Raines, Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez & Jeff Bagwell, here is an updated accumulation of Boys of Summer material.

No Love for the Tigers

Some Tigers fans, such as myself, have been very outspoken about the fact that Jack Morris, Alan Trammell & Lou Whitaker not being in the Hall of Fame. 

One of the guys in the Facebook Group went on to say: Morris was not quite HOF material. He had a career 3.90 ERA, and went on to mention the silly Curt Schilling assessment,"If you have to think about whether a player is a Hall of Famer or not, he's not." The person also went on to mention that not only is Morris not a candidate, but Jeff Bagwell, Jeff Kent, and Mike Mussina were not HOF'ers as well, despite their good career numbers... Hmm.. Guess who's getting inducted later this week? Mr. Bagwell!
He goes on to say you can't make the remark "that so-and-so is in the HOF, so so-and-so should be as well." Yes & No, I say to that. Yeah, we can't do anything about Rabbit Maranville or Dave Bancroft, or a good handful of others, at the same time you have to look at some (not all) of these guys as representatives of it's era. Joe Tinker, Johnny Evers & Frank Chance are also three that, stat-wise would not be in the Hall of Fame. My old man had a wacky idea when it comes to the Hall of Fame, do a rotating (ever-evolving) 26-30 man roster (or bigger), and when one came around, another got bumped out -- Maybe make the Hall a perfect 300, and bump people out afterwards, sure that sounds crazy. 

Overall, the damage has been done, it's funny to me that Tinker-Evers-Chance basically got in for the famous poem about them. They were great fielders for it's time, and fielding conditions were far worse then, before the day & age of ground's crews. I believe Tinker, Evers & Chance are more deserving than the likes of Maranville or Bancroft, but we can't change history. We can't change the fact that they are in, but I feel they DO represent the era, an era in which mostly are pitching dominant figures, the only offensive guys that really stood out in the first 1900-1910 decade was Ty Cobb & Honus Wagner.

So if Tinker-Evers-Chance are in for representing their eras, than Alan Trammell & Lou Whitaker should be in, right? There is plenty of rumblings that Trammell & Whitaker's time of overdue respect is coming, with the Expansion Era Committee; This committee votes every three years, and with the upcoming 2019 ballot, there's been talk of Trammell & Whitaker gaining some steam. 

The criteria of being eligible for this ballot, is that each retired ballplayer played at least 10 MLB Seasons & retired for 16 years or more; Managers & umpires with 10 or more years in baseball, must be retired for at least 5 years (candidates who are 65 years or older are eligible six months following retirement); executives retired for at least five years. Active executives 65 years or older are eligible for consideration.

The thing is this, I want to note, although Morris won the most games in the 1980's, 5-time All-Star, 4-time World Champion, 1991 World Series MVP, a career no-hitter & 2-time Babe Ruth Award Winner (for best Post-season, in 1984 & 1991)... As time has gone on through the years, I have faded on my stance of Morris (his career WAR of 44.1 troubles me a bit), but Trammell & Whitaker are no-brainers, I often wonder if they wore Yankee pinstripes, would they already be in?

By the way, you can check out an old article here, "Big Mistake" on my old argument in favor of Morris, it's definitely got its points on why...

Curt Schilling (1988-2007)

Baltimore (A.L.) 1988-1990, Houston (N.L.) 1991,

Philadelphia (N.L.) 1992-2000, Arizona (N.L.) 2000-2003

Boston (A.L.) 2004-2007

The interesting thing about Curt Schilling's assessment (that I mentioned earlier) on Hall of Fame careers, is that his own career is not so cut-and-dry, people looking at his career may have to "stop and think" about his great career, with the end result being overlooked as well.

Here's an interesting argument in favor for Schilling...

• Didn't get started really until 1992, 1994 & 1995 combines for one season (due to injuries) and he was a consistent force from 92-2007, leading the 93' Phillies to the World Series, while leading the 2001 Arizona Diamondbacks, 2004 & 2007 Boston Red Sox to World Championships (3 rings).

• 300 or more strikeouts, 3 times! Back-to-back seasons of the accomplishment for a 619 K's combination in two years!
• 3,116 K's (15th All-Time), 216 career wins with a winning percentage of .597. Sure it's not the magical 300 wins number, but he was a dependable winner. Almost a 1,000 more K's than Jim Palmer, Palmer only had two rings (66' & 83').
• Schilling's ERA of 3.46 was not that of Palmer's 2.86. But here's some food for thought, Palmer didn't get 300 wins either (268) and Schilling has him beat in the WHIP area 1.137 to 1.180!

The Palmer Measuring Stick

I have grown accustomed to using WAR as a measuring stick for careers, I don't pay as much attention to single-seasons using this tool, but I feel it does a great job at getting the overall talent of the player's career. 

I brought up the career WAR's over Jim Palmer of players NOT in the Hall of Fame. Of course, players such as Albert Pujols & Adrian Beltre are not retired yet.

• Alex Rodriguez (117.7)
• Albert Pujols (100.1)
• Adrian Beltre (91.5)
• Chipper Jones (85.0)
• Curt Schilling (79.9)
• Pete Rose (79.4)
• Bill Dahlen (75.3)
• Lou Whitaker (74.8)
• Larry Walker (72.6)
• Derek Jeter (71.8)
• Rafael Palmeiro (71.8)
• Bobby Grich (71.0)
• Alan Trammell (70.4)
• Scott Rolen (70.0)
• Manny Ramirez (69.1)
• Edgar Martinez (68.3)

The WARs of Jeff Bagwell (79.5), Tim Raines (69.1) & Ivan Rodriguez (68.3) who are getting inducted this upcoming week.

Now here is a list of MLB Hall of Famers below the career (70.0) WAR mark, to go along with Raines & Rodriguez. 

• Gary Carter
• Ed Delahanty
• Tony Gwynn
• Al Simmons
• Carlton Fisk
• Eddie Murray
• Fred Clarke
• Ryne Sandberg
• Roberto Alomar
• Duke Snider
• Joe Cronin
• Pee Wee Reese
• Goose Goslin
• Andre Dawson
• Willie McCovey
• Dave Winfield
• Billy Williams
• Richie Ashburn
• Billy Hamilton
• Lou Boudreau

and much more...

Let's go to Richie Ashburn, now...

He had 2,574 career hits, a .306 career batting average, and an outstanding On-Base Percentage of .396! He was an outfielder in a HOF field that had many outfielders, with a career OPS of .778, with only 29 career HR's from a "power position".

Now back to Alan Trammell, enter him into the equation...

He had 2,365 career hits, I think sometimes people look at hits too much, in the same way people read career wins for a pitcher, you need to look at the other numbers people.

Let's point out that his WAR (70.4) is higher than Ashburn's & Barry Larkin (70.2), the Hall-of-Fame shortstop. Trammell had 185 career HRs for a position until the 1980's was not known for having pop. Trammell didn't hit double-digits in HR's until 1983, and got the bulk of his HR's between 1983 & 1990. Trammell's 236 career steals, beats Ashburn by 2. Trammell also had a respectable .286 career average, not Ashburn's .306, but certainly better than HOF'er Gary Carter's .262!

Lou & Tram: Bless You Boys!

Trammell had a career OPS of .767, Carter had .773 & Ashburn .778. People often harp on the fact that Trammell was injured a lot at the end of his career, and that he was beyond his peak years for some time, yet that never stopped Carter from being elected, who was clearly past his prime after 1987, while sticking around until 1992.

Someone else brought up points in what faith do we have in WAR when Lou Whitaker's WAR is higher than that of Ryne Sandberg and Roberto Alomar. Simple, Sandberg really was compacted to a period from 1982-1992, he was basically a ten-year deal.... where Lou was consistent as well, and was more a factor longer from 1978-1993. Roberto was a factor from 1988-2001, he stuck around until 2004, and probably had negative WARs to drain his career WAR. 

I don't think anyone thinks Whitaker was better than Alomar, as a Tiger fan I could argue that Whitaker was just as relevant for the Tigers as Sandberg was to the Cubs, and for American League 2B standards, Whitaker was really the Joe Morgan of the American League league (with far fewer steals). Until the 1990's came around offensive second basemen were unheard of, unless you dig towards the Eddie Collins or Rogers Hornsby days. Ryne Sandberg's period of 1990-1992, is what makes the difference in the argument between Sandberg & Whitaker -- I would personally draft Alomar over these two, who was the most complete second baseman (not named Joe Morgan) of the Expansion Era.

Ryno vs Sweet Lou...

• Whitaker: .276 AVG, 244 HR's, 2,369 hits & career .789 OPS.
• Sandberg: .285 AVG, 282 HR's, 2,386 hits & career .795 OPS. Note: Sandberg, got 92 of his career HR's from 1990-1992.

Sandberg also narrowly beats Whitaker in fielding pct (.989 to .984). Sandberg does beat him in Gold Gloves 11 to 3, just off the top of my head I do want to think Whitaker had stiffer competition at the position, but I could be wrong. The Gold Glove is rewarded for the silliest things anyways, offensive stats at a position come into factor, and it's a bit of a popularity contest.

Brother to Brother

In a post named "Hall Chat Between Brothers", my brother Chris & I, had an email discussion in which we were speaking of debatable Hall of Fame careers. During this discussion, names such as Dave Parker, Tony Oliva, Vada Pinson, Bill Madlock & Fred McGriff came up, while we weighed them up against guys who are already enshrined in Cooperstown.

Through the years, it's become an interesting ballot for me. There was a time that I argued in support for those like Jack Morris until I was red in the face, as the years passed on, my case for Morris has somewhat diminished... then there are other cases that I used to scoff at, such as the case for Dave Parker, which gains more & more steam for me, while I also have found the stats to back such a case.

Dave Parker (1973-1991)

Pittsburgh (N.L.) 1973-1983,

Cincinnati (N.L.) 1984-1987,

Oakland (A.L.) 1988-1989, Milwaukee (A.L.) 1990,

California (A.L.) & Toronto (A.L.) 1991

• .290 Career Batting Average
• 2-Time N.L. Batting Champion.
• 1978 N.L. MVP Season: Batting Title (.334), while leading league in Slugging & OPS.
• Career OBP (.339) not superb, but better than Andre Dawson's (Hall of Famer) .323 OBP, while Dawson was a career .279 hitter; Parker's career .810 OPS also edges Dawson's .806
• 7-Time All-Star with 3 Gold Gloves.
• 2,774 career hits

Andre Dawson & Gary Carter's HOF Inductions opened many doors to many debates, that said, I do believe they deserve to be in the Hall of Fame... I just think it has created more murky Hall discussions, and makes more cases for players like Vada Pinson, for example. Speaking of Pinson, I believe what hurts him compared to the likes of Parker & Dawson is the lack of HR & power, his career OPS+ stands at 111+, compared to Dawson's 119+ & Parker's 121+. 

Dawson opening doors.

Of course, not everybody has power that is in the Hall of Fame, like Luis Aparicio and Ozzie Smith -- then again, most of those powerless, lack of offense guys were usually slick-fielding shortstops and not from a position like the outfield that usually packs power. It seems unfair that players like Omar Vizquel tend to gain more traction in this disputes (over players like Pinson) for not fielding at a tougher position.

I think the major thing that is hurting Bill Madlock, another Pirate that tends to be brought up in Hall of Fame debates, is the fact that he only averaged 120 games per season. Obviously, if he was to play at least another 20 games per season, he would have seen a hike in his 2,008 career hits -- if he was closer to the 3,000 hits side of the spectrum, he would get more leeway in the argument. Other than those negatives, his positives speak loudly in his career Batting Average (.305), On-Base Percentage (.365) & OPS (.830); His OPS & OPS+ (123+) was actually better than Dave Parker (.810 / 121+)... who would have ever thought such a thing?! Madlock was a gifted hitter that won 4 batting titles, the most times for a non-Hall of Fame Inductee.

Madlock's 3 All-Star Appearances does not seem like a lot, but he did win an All-Star MVP Game Honors once. People also need to keep in mind, that he was often overshadowed by talented teammates & the N.L. just featured many talented All-Stars, it's tough to make the All-Star Game on the N.L. side, when you have to compete against a player named Mike Schmidt every single season.

Tony Oliva honored with statue outside Target Field.

Then there is Tony Oliva, his name is praised by many that watched him play in his day, many speak volumes of Oliva. What jumps out quickly is his career 131 OPS+, which is 10 more than Parker's 121+ and 12 more than Andre Dawson! The knocker is the fact that he was off-the-charts stellar for only a seven-year arc from 1964-1971. Then again, his drop-off in 1972 & the remainder of his career was due to obvious knee & shoulder injuries that plagued him. Another amazing fact about Oliva is the simple fact that he produced these amazing stats during the "second deadball era".

Oliva was an 8-time A.L. All-Star, with 3 career Batting Titles (1964-65, 1971) and may have won 3 straight batting titles if it were not for a 3-for-30 slump in the middle of September in 1966; Oliva also won the 1964 A.L. Rookie of the Year Award & a Gold Glove in his tremendous career.

Earlier, I mentioned that Morris' WAR of 44.3 troubles me, yet Oliva (43.0) & Parker had lower career WAR (39.9).

I was glad to see that Tim Raines finally got the recognition that he has long deserved, by being inducted in the 2017 Hall of Fame class, along with Ivan 'Pudge' Rodriguez & Jeff Bagwell. Raines has long been overlooked, and I question sometimes if the sports writers hold grudges against players who have played with numerous teams. The sports writer seems to be infatuated with players that have played their careers mostly for one team. 

Fred McGriff (1986-2004)

Toronto (A.L.) 1986-1990, San Diego (N.L.) 1991-1993,

Atlanta (N.L.) 1993-1997, Tampa Bay (A.L.) 1998-2001, 2004

Chicago (N.L.) 2001-2002, Los Angeles (N.L.) 2003

Another player who played for numerous teams, that belongs in the Hall of Fame, is Fred McGriff. McGriff played for 7 MLB teams during his career, while his longest stint was actually with the Atlanta Braves (4 1/2 years), not the Toronto Blue Jays (4 years). Most folks including myself, a fan of the 1990's Atlanta Braves & a former owner of a McGriff Braves' T-Shirt, think of him as a Blue Jay though.

Serious Crime: Why McGriff belongs...

• Just shy of 2,500 career hits (2,490)
• Just shy of the magical lock-in Hall number of 500 homers (493).
• Career .284 hitter 
• 5-Time All-Star (All-Star Game MVP)
• 3-Time Silver Slugger
• 1,550 Career RBI
• .377 career On-Base Percentage (above all players mentioned above, including Oliva).
• .886 Career OPS
• 134 OPS+

As a full-time player, McGriff dipped below an .800 OPS only once! His incredible consistency seemed to play against him, which is simply odd in my opinion, I am not sure if it's because he was not an obnoxious, arrogant slugger like Barry Bonds, the whole not-staying-in-one-place thing, or the fact he had no flash to his game... but he did everything that was asked of him as a big leaguer, and it's a complete crime against Baseball that McGriff is not in the Hall of Fame.

Another player that should be in, is...

Edgar Martinez (1987-2004)

Seattle (A.L.)

Edgar Martinez is a representative of the DH era, and he did not get his first actual break until age 27! He was the solid force behind the emergence of the Seattle Mariners franchise, he had 5 seasons over a 1.000 OPS (Bagwell had 5, Piazza had 4 -- to put it in perspective). Edgar & other Designated Hitters are suffering the same stigma as a NFL punter, Mitch Williams, former reliever for the Philadelphia Phillies & current MLB analyst said it best, "If there is a position created in the game of baseball, such as the DH, then there needs to be a position for that in the Hall of Fame as well." I should add since my original article, that Frank Thomas was voted in, and is considered the Hall of Fame's first Designated Hitter.

Edgar Martinez is among the 4th best all-time in OBP for players who made the Major League debuts after World War II (.418). To put it in perspective for Edgar's career, think about the season that Victor Martinez had with the 2014 Detroit Tigers -- V-Mart led the A.L. with a .974 OPS; Edgar surpasses Victor Martinez's career year, with 10 total seasons that were better than that.... that's just flat-out nuts!

His 147+ OPS just trails that of Joe DiMaggio (155+) and is right with Mike Schmidt (147+). He is a career .312 hitter with a .933 OPS.

Now when people keep discussing Designated Hitters, everyone and their mother would mention David Ortiz & how Ortiz will represent the DH in the Hall of Fame. If they did their research, They would see that Edgar has him beat in many categories. Ortiz' stats definitely scream Hall of Fame, but let's make sure Edgar gets in as well... plus Edgar was not linked to any PED speculation like "Big Papi" was.

• Go to this  article - "An Accumulation of HOF material on BoS"

That completes this compilation of material, to read them all individually, you can click on the topic "The Ongoing Hall of Fame Debate".


Coming up: The continuation of my HOF Set project, and my latest experience at Comerica Park as I was at the Tigers game on July 16th.